New Contest?

This contest sounds fun. It would probably be a good idea to have some further limitations, to avoid people overdoing the number of dice, pawns, cards etc. used in the game.

Maybe you could list approximate costs on each compponent, and put a limit on the total cost. If you don't want to reveal the actual cost of the components, you can use "pseudocents" that are roughly proportional to the real cost, but can't be used to know exactly what they cost.

Also, for those of us who aren't artists, will you be satisfied with entries with little or no artwork but just written descriptions of what should be pictured?

You also mentioned that the cardstock could be coloured (but only printed in black). What colours are available and is it possible to use several colours in the same game (e.g, one colour per player)? Similarly, what are the colours of the pawns? Red, green, blue, yellow, white and black would be my guess, but I may be wrong.

You say that cardstock can be up to 5x8". Are there any limitations to shape, i.e., are hexagonal or round pieces possible or only rectangular? Can we expect people to cut non-rectangualr shapes out of rectangular sheets? If so, how much cutting work woul d be acceptable?

To sum up, it woud be a good idea to be very precise about what limitations you have, both hard (you definitely can't do this) and soft (we would prefer you not to do this, and it would detract from your score if you do, but we don't actually forbid it).

Torben

Further to the contest (lets call this, 'the nasty details').

Component prices WILL be posted... and the maximum 'cost' will be 1/8th of the retail price... so a game costing $2.00 in components would need to be priced at $16.00 retail... which would of course be too much for a micro.

I'll put up a revised list later today.

Authors would be gauranteed 6 copies of the published version for their portfolios. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier, and yes, thats pretty standard. In addition, up to 2 dozen more are available to the designer AT COST (not wholesale, actual cost) at the time of release... and thereafter, as many copies as they wish at wholesale price.

Revised list/rules later today.

XXOOCC

...and just for those wondering...

Who's Your Daddy? has sold about 1100 units... so

$1.18 X 1100 units = We spent $1298.00 producing it.

(It costs about $.20 to ship, solicit, and invoice WYD per unit)
1100 X $0.20 = We spent $220.00 shipping, marketing, and administering this product.

1100 X $7.95 = $8,745.00 X 40% = We grossed $3,498.00 selling it wholesale.

$3498.00 - $1298.00 = $2200 - $220.00 = $1980.00 net profits

...from which our contest winner's stipend would be...

$50 +
(7.95 x.4) = 3.18 x 5% = $.159 X (1100 -200) = $143.10

...0r $50 + 143.10 ... or $193.10 + 6 copies of the game... or slightly less than 10% (9.7525%) of the profits to the designer. Royalties will NOT be calculated on profits, however, but on actual gross sales. I plan to post both the numbers and the demographics on those sales here as well.

\XXOOCC

Okay, some good questions, so here goes... Mike asked...

***********************
Are things permitted that need to be 'cut out'? For instance a sheet of chits? I assume that goes with the trimming cost (or is this cost just the cost to trim off white space?), but does the per trim cost mean per straight edge cut? For instance, if I have a sheet of 10 by 10 chits and it requires 20 cuts (10 horizontal and 10 vertical), does that make the trim cost for that sheet $.20? Can we assume/require that the end user will cut the sheet out themselves and save on costs? >>

we do them as foldovers, because 'chits' really need to be on chipboard to be usable... and, for the most part, we let the customer cut them out of cardstock. Heavy cardstock is about the thickness of an uncoated biz card (slightly lighter). Foldovers are eminently ok (All of the "When Good... Go Bad" games use them as do Catskills, Anyville, Abduls' Adventure... suffice it to say that we use them a lot)... but know how many fit on a page. If folks would like an example that can be posted here of what a "foldover" looks like, holler. The nice thing about a foldover that stands up is that its easier to grasp than a standard 'chit', even if done on chipboard, while being just as stackable.
******************************************
Also, what is the feasibility of producing cards with the allowable cardstock? Will it be too flimsy? Will it be too transparent? I assume since we can only print on one side (I.E. We can't print a opaque pattern on the card back) that it will be too transparent. >>

We can print cards, but the 'see-through factor' is actually second to durability. If the cards are incidental to play (like they are in Monopoly), then they are ok... If they are the primary random play generator, they don't hold up very well when cut from cardstock... they don't take being shuffled very well. (At least not very often). A good standard 'card' is laminated so that it will shuffle... and lamination is NOT available.
*****************

That's all I can think of for now.. Again, I think an excel spreadsheet where we could plug in numbers for costs would prove invaluable to us as we went through the design process.
************************
I use one when I compute, but there are costs involved there that will not be part of the equation (shipping, and so forth)...

so... make one :-).

Mine took me all of 20 mins to do, although again, its got a LOT more on it than what I want contestants concerned with, including sales over time, demographics, regionally related costing, customer specific costing, buying patterns, etc.

ALL of our accounting is done via Excel.

XXOOCC

...one last comment. I've gotten LOTS of thank yous... and I appreciate it, but its unnecessary. Yes, I want to take the time to ensure that everyone understands the process, at least the process WE use here at ICGD... but we'll get something out of this too... and that also is how the system ought to work - everybody wins.

So thanks to all of you that plan to participate as well.

All entries will receive a crtique, as before, no simply you lose, he wins, and feedback or criticism on the critiques is NOT to be considered bad form either.

Now... if I can just get a bit more caught up :-)...

XXOOCC

btw, the LA RPG adventure test we're doing in the 'extra' chat room is nearing its end, and the game is already through layout and at the 'continuity check' phase of production... so that one is just about off of my desk. :-)

It gets printed on an 11X 17 and then folded twice... 11X15 is, however, our largest single image that we can shoot on the printer.

OK... answer time again :-).

Cardstock folds twice fine... I think hpox has a copy of Lemmings In Space! which has just that type of double-folded cardstock, and its our heaviest 110#.... I think you're confusing chipboard and cardstock... Cardstock is still flexible, chipboard absolutely is not. Our press will not run chipboard.

Cardstock can be folded twice... but not more than that.

On the foldovers.... we have six games in print that use them, and they do work pretty well.

Greyscale IS possible... with a couple of provisos..

Our printer is an offset duplicator. The dot gain is present without being severe, and it can print up to 450 DPI... although beyond 300 is wasted because of the dot gain. It will also tend to darken greyscale images about 20% (dot gain again). ... So just lighten your images a bit, and when the print, they'll come out fairly accurately to your original vision.

You CAN NOT put ink within a half inch of the edge of the page... so no bleeds... this will cause the printed surface to stick to the drum in the printer. Bleeds can be accomplished withsmaller sizes as we can print and then 'trim to bleed'

I will certainly call the contest the Inner City Games Designs Microgame contest...

BTW... I entered the design prototype stage on a new microgame this week... title to be determined, working title, "The Stripey Hole". Its a prison-break-escape game, and I will use it as an example here once the prototype is worked up (probably Monday). I will put it up as a different topic.

Hope that covers the rather pertinent questions asked. :-)

...ok... let me also state that I think we're narrowing practicality to mean 'cost'... which is NOT the case... part of practicality is cost. Whats the rest?

If you design a game tha has foldovers, and you cram 100 of them onto a sheet so that only ants can move the pieces, well.. thats not practical either. Neither is a game that requires unique display conditions at a store, or any other of a thousand myriad niche problems that can occur if a designer does not take practical concerns into account.

Part of the exercise here is to design games that CAN actually be produced. Practicality is an extremely strong component of that mix.

I have seen games with ZERO playability, great market angles (marketing) and practicality built into them that have sold far more than they deserved to.. and I have seen great games that take no consideration of practicality languish in the design cabinet, never even seeing print. I have seen fantastic and practical games that have no built-in marketing relegated to the, "No, it sounds pretty cool but I've never heard of it." bin.

I'm planning on leaving the scoring % as-is... although please rest assured that practicality is more than just cost vs. price.

Onward...

<>

Thats a good point... although I do plan on doing 'development' with the designer AFTER the contest... so if you can't find 'just the right art bit', don't sweat it. I will say that the feel of a game can be influenced by its presentation, however... but also that the gang here at ICGD have been at this for quite a while... and we're a bit more jaded towards presentation aspects than joe-average-gamer... so it will affect our review of any game less, although it would be inaccurate to say, "not at all."

<>
A little... although truly thats more of a marketing issue. IF a designer sees an extremely 'grabby' way to present their design (commercially speaking) that would bump the marketing score for the game... but in those cases, the idea is more important than the art. I'd even put a note in if you're unsatisfied with what you have for your own prototype:
"One of those 'squirrel with a bazooka' pictures would be great here but I couldn't find one" is a better idea than a stick figure... because I will at least know that you know what you want even if you simply can't find it. Finding the squirrel with the bazooka can be done on this end... although if we wind up paying for it, it would become a development issue with the designer, and might cost you a point or two on practicality if there was no other way to engender the same marketing effect. (But only a point or two).

<< Are you looking to have most of the visual work done by the game designer, or do you have some development time/costs set aside for graphic work? >>
development time, yes, costs, only minimally.. but fear not, I am a gaming 'jack of all trades'.. and know various methods for getting it done cheaply. Doing the 'prep for market' work is something I do expect to have happen AFTER the contest.. with discussions between our outfit and the designer posted here, so that all can see how one of these things comes together, at least at our shop. I'm also hoping that some commentary will help me to expand my horizons as we proceed in that fashion, and maybe learn a thing or two that improves the way we do things here.

<<- How much of the graphics and layout do you expect to be complete in a submitted entry? >>

You need to prepare a 'working prototype' just as you would for a submission to a real games company... totally finished is not necessary, but you want to be sure that you get your ideas across.

<>

That would be a misconception. Believe me, everything I have EVER designed gets a complete overhaul once the gang tells me its sellable... there may be a minor advantage, but not major.... quantified? say about 2-3%...

<<- Does anyone have suggestions for free and/or cheap clipart for those of us who can't draw? (Heck, that could be a completely different thread, in the "Production" forum...) >>
I use www.100000freecliparts.com :-)

I also use Dover clip, and Photoshop Deluxe to 'morph images' into what I need them to be.

...and I'm a big Dwarf fan too... here's hoping this contest gives you a double-Polaroid :-).

XXOOCC

I don't have a scan handy... but they're small, about 1/2 an inch, maybe a bit bigger.

For those with copies... they are the old Buck Rogers ships.
...they're also the ones we use for Lemmings In Space!

I'll see if I can get a scan in a day or two.
XXOOCC