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Classical Element Combinations

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Toa Lewa
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Weakness System

Kroz wrote:
In your game, how will you determine which combination is good against which?

That's a good question. I am not sure yet. I was thinking of having element combinations inherit the weaknesses of its derivative elements. For example, lava (earth + fire) would be weak against Aether and water (earth and fire's weaknesses). However, this system has issues with some elements. For example, using this system, steam's weakness is earth and water. I don't think this makes much sense since steam is partially composed of water.

I am open to suggestions.

X3M
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Just an idea

If you have 5 elements, you could follow the example of the Shinobi Shakra system.
However, the 5th element is based on lightning. You simply replace it with Aether.

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/04262008/b/0/5/4/b05414c7ec4630_...

Where one type is good against the very next one in the system.
I also believe, slightly better then the second after that.

And counter clockwise, 1 type actually reinforces another type if combined.

Example:
Fire beats Wind
Wind reinforces Fire
The 2 combined will beat each one separately. Yet you use the double amount of chakra.
A combination of 2 is good, but will have a double weakness against another element.

If you think of a system like this but then with Aether instead. And set up rules for the basics. Then the combinations of elements will automatically have a system like this as well.

Kroz1776
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Gotta Catch 'em All POKEMON!!! Pi-Pikachu!

Please note the following isn't a structured argument for any one system but a mad man typing down thoughts as they come to him. This author may change his mind mid post and contradict himself in places. Please read accordingly I actually really like the pokemon system. This basically means you'd combine the two weaknesses and strengths into one. Although that does create some funky weaknesses like you mentioned...

Another way to do it is that you give each element a priority. Thus Fire could be the top and then go down from that. Which ever element is lower on the list will be the element you use to determine weakness, while the element on top is the one you use for strengths.

This does present a problem though in that this inherently means you'll have one element that is always better in a combination than others.

Another idea comes from the Pokemon TCG. This is that the weaknesses are right there on the cards. You could do the same with the different elementals. You could have the generic weaknesses and strengths, but then when there are combinations, you might want different strengths and weaknesses depending on the card. This means that when creating different elementals you actually have a greater power in customizing each card now! You could even start classifying their attacks so that a steam elemental that IS steam, it's attack could be water, but it's not weak against water, or water isn't good against it but perhaps Aether is for some odd reason. Either way, this gives you more flexing room.

Toa Lewa
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Kroz wrote:Another idea comes

Kroz wrote:
Another idea comes from the Pokemon TCG. This is that the weaknesses are right there on the cards. You could do the same with the different elementals. You could have the generic weaknesses and strengths, but then when there are combinations, you might want different strengths and weaknesses depending on the card. This means that when creating different elementals you actually have a greater power in customizing each card now! You could even start classifying their attacks so that a steam elemental that IS steam, it's attack could be water, but it's not weak against water, or water isn't good against it but perhaps Aether is for some odd reason. Either way, this gives you more flexing room.

Interesting idea. I am not sure if I will use this or not. Right now I'm thinking I will just have to manually give each combination a weakness to make everything make sense. All the weakness and strength inheritance systems I could come up with created weird solutions (like darkness being weak against mud). I'll give you an update on what I come up with.

Toa Lewa
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Weaknesses for Combinations

Here is what I have right now.

Mud>Lava>Ice>Electricity>Void >Light>Darkness>Steam>Dust>Metal>Mud

I am not satisfied with this because there are major problems. However, I will give you the current reasoning behind this list.

  • Mud>Lava
    Mud, being partially compose of water, cools down lava.
  • Lava>Ice
    Lava melts ice.
  • Ice>Electricity Lightening rarely occurs during snowstorms. I am attributing this to Ice.
  • Electricity>Void
    This is somewhat technical. Theoretically, black holes decrease in size when they absorb less energy/matter than the energy they emit.

    Never mind. I just found out that electricity requires a medium through which to travel. This means that electricity cannot flow through space.
  • Void>Light
    Light can be absorbed by black holes.
  • Light>Darkness
    Darkness is the absence of light.
  • Darkness>Steam
    Darkness is cold (inheriting that aspect from water and aether); therefore, darkness removes the heat from steam.
  • Steam>Dust
    Steam (being a form of cloud) absorbs dust.
  • Dust>Metal
    Dust can cause metal to rust.
  • Metal>Mud
    I have no idea why metal would be stronger than mud. It was the only element I had left and this was the only place to place it.

As you can see, this list is flawed, but I am kind of brain dead right and cannot think of anything better. Criticism and suggestions will be very much appreciated.

Kroz1776
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Swapperoo

I'd swap the the dust and steam weakness and the metal and dust one. Instead say that steam is good against metal because it will cause it to rust, (you need some water to oxidize the metal) then make dust good against steam, because the dust will cause the steam to form clouds. Then metal being good against mud because, metal rocks like that. ;)

Toa Lewa
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Rusting and Dusty Darkness

Kroz wrote:
I'd swap the the dust and steam weakness and the metal and dust one. Instead say that steam is good against metal because it will cause it to rust, (you need some water to oxidize the metal) then make dust good against steam, because the dust will cause the steam to form clouds. Then metal being good against mud because, metal rocks like that. ;)

Steam forming rust on metal makes sense, but can you think of any reason why dust would be weak against darkness?

X3M
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Dust is blind in the

Dust is blind in the Darkness.
Jk.

Anyway, in real life.
Water and Earth beat Fire.
And Wood doesn't come from only Water and Earth but also from Fire(the sun) and Air (CO2). It also has some minerals from Earth and uses Water to get those minerals and distribute the CO2 as well. So how come Wood burns in Fire? While the 3 elements don't?
Well, that is chemistry and has notching to do with 4 elements. But something with about 30 elements and some quantum mechanics plus biology.

To have better chances:
When you combine 2 elements, the distribution could be different as well.
In other games, Water and Earth can make:
Wood(3:1), Mud (1:3), Landslides (2:2), and perhaps several other things.
Wood burns, because one of the 2 elements is more abundant. Fire beats Earth? And Fire beats Wood? Than Wood must have more Earth than Water. As simple as that.
Mud on the other hand has more water. And thus beats fire.

Of course it makes no sense if you name something without checking the effects first. So simply change the name of the combination into something else that can get from that combination. Or make sure you have several combinations with just 2 elements.

Don't be afraid of having 2 combinations that balance each other out.

Kroz1776
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Cannot Compute...um....Errr...Wait...You're Under Arrest!

Toa Lewa wrote:
Kroz wrote:
I'd swap the the dust and steam weakness and the metal and dust one. Instead say that steam is good against metal because it will cause it to rust, (you need some water to oxidize the metal) then make dust good against steam, because the dust will cause the steam to form clouds. Then metal being good against mud because, metal rocks like that. ;)

Steam forming rust on metal makes sense, but can you think of any reason why dust would be weak against darkness?

Ah, you want a full circuit then. Well then. I don't really know a solution, unless you made metal good against dust good against mud, which makes even less sense, not the metal vs. dust, that makes sense in that dust can't harm metal, but dust being good against mud.

Toa Lewa
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New Ideas

X3M wrote:
When you combine 2 elements, the distribution could be different as well.
In other games, Water and Earth can make:
Wood(3:1), Mud (1:3), Landslides (2:2), and perhaps several other things.

I just don't know if I want to make things that complicated or not. My game utilizes decks of cards that contains the combination attacks. If I add wood and other combinations in the game, I think there will be way to many cards. However, this idea could be used in expansion packs.

Turning to another subject, I decided to look at Pokémon and see how they dealt with element combinations. I haven't played any of the games for awhile, but I remembered that there were combination Pokémon. After looking at their system, I was very surprised. For example, I looked at Mudkip presuming it would be a mud type Pokémon. I was wrong. Mudkip is a water/earth Pokémon. That being the case, Mudkip has access to earth, water, and mud attacks.

I think I may use a system like this. Instead of elemental creatures combining into new types of creatures, they retain their old weakness, strengths, and attacks but gain access to new attacks. For example, a fire/air creature could use air attacks, fire attacks, or electricity attacks. This creature could be weak against water and earth, but the electricity attacks could make it strong against water as well. How does this sound?

Kroz wrote:
Ah, you want a full circuit then.

Actually, I think the full circuit idea is severely limiting my game design, and I am about ready to dump the full circuit idea. Goodbye Naruto! Lol

Toa Lewa
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Attacks Forms

Does anyone see any problems with combination creatures retaining their weaknesses, strengths, and attacks and just gaining new attacks without changing form?

X3M
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That is actually a smart

That is actually a smart thing to do.

Toa Lewa
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Element Strengths

Well, I went back to true combinations rather than creatures being composed of two separate elements (I know, I can't make up my mind). Anyway, I've been working on the elements list for awhile, and now I believe I have an almost complete list of the element's strengths and weaknesses. Would you guys be willing to critique it? The link to my table is below.

A green cell means the element is twice as strong as the element it is attacking, a red cell means the element is half a strong as the element it is attacking, and a yellow cell means it is equal in strength to the element it is attacking.

Keep in mind when you look at the elements, I made an element strong against another if it could consume, absorb, reflect, change, or move the other element.

http://www.bgdf.com/image/element-strengthweaknesses?size=preview

X3M
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Give them -1, 0 and +1 as

Give them -1, 0 and +1 as value's.

That way, you can add up every column and every row. And if the total is exactly 0. The creature type itself is balanced.

Toa Lewa
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Does it make Sense?

X3M wrote:
Give them -1, 0 and +1 as value's.

That way, you can add up every column and every row. And if the total is exactly 0. The creature type itself is balanced.

Good idea X3M. I just made a new table to reflect the changes.

http://www.bgdf.com/image/element-strengths-and-weaknesses

Right now, I'm not too worried about all of the elements perfectly balancing. I think they are all pretty good right now (with the exception of air and lava). As long as the value is 0, 1, or -1, I'll be happy.

Mainly what I'm looking for is feedback on whether or not the strengths and weaknesses make sense. The strengths and weaknesses make sense to me, but I want to see what others think. If you have questions about how I arrived at certain strength or weakness, I'll let you know. For example, steam being strong against electricity doesn't seem very intuitive. However, I arrived at this conclusion since there is less static on humid days rather than dry days. Steam is vapor in the air, so it makes sense to me that steam would be strong against electricity.

Jarec
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I gave that last table a

I gave that last table a quick look, and thought it made sense overall.

Though just looking at the numbers each element has, and while you said it's not balanced, I feel that Air should beat Steam. Again just looking at the numbers, Air has so many weaknesses and Steam has so few interactions with anything.

Also, Void vs. Void -1?

X3M
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You can also think like

You can also think like this:
If an element is weak against another element. Like Air against Fire. Air can actually be used to fuel that other element.

And Steam fuels Electricity. A cloud is steam. A cloud can produce lightning. And air helps the steam with it. Thus is sounds indeed logical to me too that air beats steam.

Overall, it depends on the area that you are targeting with your game. While the west has 4 elements as basic. The east has 5. And there are 2 versions in those 5. One has lighting added as the 5th element. And the other one contains wood and metal.

Wait, have we been down this road before?

Toa Lewa
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Air and Void making Sense

Jarec wrote:
Though just looking at the numbers each element has, and while you said it's not balanced, I feel that Air should beat Steam. Again just looking at the numbers, Air has so many weaknesses and Steam has so few interactions with anything.

X3M wrote:
You can also think like this:
If an element is weak against another element. Like Air against Fire. Air can actually be used to fuel that other element.

And Steam fuels Electricity. A cloud is steam. A cloud can produce lightning. And air helps the steam with it. Thus is sounds indeed logical to me too that air beats steam.

That makes sense that steam is weak against air. Thanks for the suggestion. That will help make air stronger. Now if only I could make lava a little bit weaker. Do you have any suggestions on that?

Jarec wrote:
Also, Void vs. Void -1?

What happens when two black holes get together? I guess they destroy each other! Lol. I don't know. I was just trying to weaken void a little bit, kind of like psychic is weak against psychic in Pokemon. I don't know if it makes any sense at all. I have been contemplating making void weak against ice instead. Since ice is a solid and takes up space, would nothing (void) be weak against it? What would you suggest?

X3M wrote:
Overall, it depends on the area that you are targeting with your game. While the west has 4 elements as basic. The east has 5. And there are 2 versions in those 5. One has lighting added as the 5th element. And the other one contains wood and metal.

Wait, have we been down this road before?

I think we have been down this road before. Basically my system utilizes water, fire, earth, air, and aether as the base elements, and all the rest are combinations of those five. Originally, I thought I was going to have a perfect simple circle of weaknesses, but I scrapped that idea since many weaknesses didn't make sense. I have spent a lot of time trying to make sure that everything makes sense, but I'm starting to think that players aren't going to spend much time critiquing the combinations themselves but, rather, the strategies and mechanics. I remember when I played Pokemon, I really didn't care whether the weaknesses made sense, I just cared if my Pokemon had an advantage or not. Come to think of it, why on earth is steel strong against fairy in Pokemon? I've probably spent too much time worrying about the weaknesses, but I might as well continue since I'm almost done.

X3M
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Strong and weaknesses of

Strong and weaknesses of lava. Well, lets think logically about it. The most important thing about lava is the temperature.

In real life the following effects of elements take place when facing lava:

Water vaporizes, but cools lava. Eventually water will win.
Water is the weaker on in this, but abundant. It is often a quantity against quality.
Besides, the outer shell of lava cools first, trapping the rest.

Earth, eventually melts in lava. But has also a cooling effect on lava in the same way. If a bit of earth melts and immediately cools, the same trapping takes place.

Wind has no effects at all. And only gets heated and gets energy from this to blow around harder.

Fire, ehm, actually gets produced by lava.

Wood, burns and has simply no effect on lava.

Metal, eventually starts melting. You can use lava and fire to get metal in the shape you want. Thus making useful tools. Like an axe to shop wood. A bucket to carry water or earth.
Although, metal guides energy much better then water or earth. Thus metal cannot cool down lava, but becomes part of it. Making the lava stronger. If the lava is not cool enough, you simply have more lava.
Perhaps you can make it so that you can expand lava by adding earth or metal, things that only melt. And if you add enough, the lava is too cool and becomes earth.

If I think about aether. I don't know this one. I can't get a grasp of how it looks. But one thing is sure, aether or void are the opposite of dark holes. Dark holes are called this way because they look like holes. But they are actually the most dense objects in the universe.

Toa Lewa
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Oops

X3M wrote:
But one thing is sure, aether or void are the opposite of dark holes. Dark holes are called this way because they look like holes. But they are actually the most dense objects in the universe.

Oh boy! The reason I decided light is weak against void is because black holes can trap light (if it is at the correct angle). But, you're right, black holes are dense (not void). My reasoning is flawed.

X3M
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Void = Vacuum?In that case,

Void = Vacuum?
In that case, void would be the best medium for light to go through. There is no resistance.

I guess, this is the trouble you get when using aether.
But don't give up. You could try to see how other people apply aether in their games.

There is a minecraft mod using aether, that I happen to know of. See what they have added on the wiki? And do your experience.

Edit:
I was just wondering, what is your current list?
And I am brainstorming on this right now, using a different approach.

And I don't know if I mentioned it before but each element can have 2 properties cancelling other properties out:
Earth: cold, dry
Water: cold and wet
Air: hot and wet
Fire: hot and dry

dry and wet cancel each other out.
cold and hot cancel each other out.

Lets add fire to earth.
cold+hot+dry+dry= 2 x dry; sand
lets add another fire
2 x dry + hot + dry = 3 x dry + hot; lava

When we are going to fight lava with water we get:
3 x dry + hot + (cold + wet) = 2 x dry, we get sand again.

Now, this might still give issue's regarding stuff like ice. So I think, Aether's only job would be strengthening one property. While maintaining another.

When we combine earth with water, we get 2 x cold. Thus mud is 2 x cold.
Yet if we apply aether to water, we get ice. which can be 2 x cold with wet or cold + 2 x wet.
Should we have 2 different ice? Well, we can have snow besides of ice.

I also see an issue with water + air, which gives 2 x wet.
Well, that makes no sense to steam. Right?

Toa Lewa
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Element and Combination List

Here's my list. Hopefully this is what you meant. Oh, by the way, Aristotle considered aether to be neither wet, dry, hot, or cold. http://gwawinapterus.wordpress.com/2013/08/11/aether-as-an-element/

Elements:

Fire
Air
Water
Earth
Aether

Combinations:

Fire + Water = Steam
Fire + Earth = Lava
Fire + Air = Lightning
Fire + Aether = Light

Air + Earth = Dust
Air + Water = Ice
Air + Aether = Void

Water + Earth = Plant
Water + Aether = Darkness

Earth + Aether = Metal

X3M
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You could try using the

You could try using the elements from the avatar.
Where each element has an advanced version of bending.

Fire, Lightning
Earth, Metal
Water, Blood
Air, ??? still to be told by the creators.

There are also other advanced versions like healing with water.

But Aether could be the bridge between the classical element and the advanced element. You already have your metal right.
But your Fire + Air = Lightning is a flaw either way.
Just my thought.

Toa Lewa
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Quote:You could try using the

Quote:
You could try using the elements from the avatar.
Where each element has an advanced version of bending.

Fire, Lightning
Earth, Metal
Water, Blood
Air, ??? still to be told by the creators.

There are also other advanced versions like healing with water.

But Aether could be the bridge between the classical element and the advanced element. You already have your metal right.

I appreciate the idea, but I'm not sure how advanced versions would be relevant in my game. You see it's combos that I'm looking for.

Quote:
your Fire + Air = Lightning is a flaw either way.
Just my thought.

I disagree. I don't have any scholarly sources, but if you search "Air Fire Combination" in a search engine, you will find many people saying that it is lightning. One guy I read said that this was the classical view (unfortunately he didn't have a source though). If you think about it, it seems to make sense. When air gets hot, it moves faster. Therefore, it has more energy. What is pure energy in the air? Lightning. Here's another thought. Why do trees sometimes catch on fire when they get hit by lightning? Because lightning is part fire (in a classical sense).

X3M
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My suggestion was that Aether

My suggestion was that Aether makes the elements more "advanced". But you could call it a combination. I don't see the difference except for the naming.

***

Regarding Lightning:
From a physics kind of guy point of view. It is totally flawed ;).
Wiki!!!

In ancient times they didn't know better. But the classical believing was indeed:
fire + air = lightning
Or
lightning is a separate element
Or
lightning is an advanced version of fire.

If it works for you, go with it.

Toa Lewa
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Quote:From a physics kind of

Quote:
From a physics kind of guy point of view. It is totally flawed ;).

I completely understand. It doesn't make much sense now, but it did back then. As I said before, I'm trying to stay true to ancient science.

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