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New Game Category

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Anonymous

I had picked up a copy of Brian Tinsman's The Game Inventor's Guidebook. In the foreword it says:

"This book is really just for one person, but I'm not sure who it is yet.

In 1984 Trivial Pursuit shocked the industry by selling 20 million copies and defining the new category of adult party games. Dungeons & Dragons started the fantasy roleplaying game category with its breakout success in 1980. In 1993 Magic: the Gathering created a category called trading card games, destroying all sales records and becoming one of the best-selling games in the world in a few short years. Today the game world is due for the next category-defining blockbuster product. The idea if probably out there right now. If you're the lucky person destined to create it, this book is for you."

Although I may not be the person he is talking about, and I may only be 13, but I think I have come up with a basic idea for a game category. I trust everybody here and I don't really care if my idea gets stolen (this post will always exist to prove that I thought of it first, anyway :-)), so I will share my idea with you all.

I read through some of the games in this book, including M:tG, Mage Knight, and D&D. What do all of these games have in common? They are collectable (If you count D&D minis). In the past there have been collectable card games, miniature games, and even collectable dice game (I believe that is what Dragon Dice is, am I right? At least to some extent?) I have even witnessed WizKids (www.wizkidsgames.com) create a Collectable, Constructable Strategy Game. It seems that all of these games are collectable, random, and that is what catches the eye of the buyer, if not at least makes them consider looking at it.

So, while thinking, and on a bit of a sugar rush, I was joking around, keeping in mind the Foreword in The Game Inventor's Guidebook, I said to myself, "Hey! Why not make a Collectable Board Game!"

And then I thought to myself... "Hey.... Why not make a Collectable Board Game..." This time I was serious.

I mean, if you can put cards in boosters, and you can put figures in boosters, and you can put dice in boosters, and even tiny rulebooks, why not pieces of board games?

I mean, after creating a good board game, playtesting it over and over and over, until it is at the stage of sending it to publishers, add the collectable aspect. A booster could come with different parts of boards and different figures, all at random. The pieces of the board would be able to connect together somehow and use the figures to play on the board you and your opponent create from the pieces you have from the boosters.

Just a thought. ...A very large, pretty detail thought.

rkalajian
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New Game Category

This actually sounds like a great idea, though it might be a very difficult task to pull off. Another suggestion would be to package rules variations in the boosters so that players can mix up the game.

The biggest problem to me is that player's pieces will get mixed up when creating the board and using figures. You'd have to find a way that players can mark their stuff so it doesn't get confused with another player's stuff.

and stuff...

GamesOnTheBrain
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Re: New Game Category

DragonKid wrote:
Hey.... Why not make a Collectable Board Game..." This time I was serious.

It's a great idea, DragonKid, but the problem is the implementation. Depending on what you mean by it, collectable boardgames, in and of themselves, are not new.

Games like Advanced Squad Leader don't even come with gameboards. They are only a collection of rules. One must buy modules to actually play the game. Each module comes with new gameboards, counters, etc. Another game, Vortex, is composed of collectable hex tiles.

In addition to the problems mentioned above regarding the separation of a players pieces from those of his opponent, the biggest problem IMHO is this:

For decades, people have been collecting cards (ex. baseball cards).

For many years, people have been collecting miniatures a.k.a. figurines.

Making a game with them was simply the next logical step. IMHO, it was not a great innovation. The success story is that someone was able to market it well and make a lot of money. Afterall, people have been playing games with G.I. Joes and other miniatures for years.

On the other hand, I don't know anyone who collects large sheets of chipboard with some squares or hexes printed on them.

Gameboards, in and of themselves, are not generally seen as collectable items.

Joe_Huber
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New Game Category

I've seen at least one game advertised as a collectable board game - I'm not sure if it's Duel of Ages, or if I thought Dual of Ages also might be one in addition to the other game.

In any event, it's been tried; not sure if it's been successful, though...

zaiga
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New Game Category

I think it is a great idea, DragonKid and it certainly has great potential. As GamesOnTheBrain pointed out, there are some problems when trying to make a boardgame "collectable". However, I think it is more constructive to think about how you can solve these problems or how you can circumvent them than saying that it simply won't work (not that GotB said this with so much words, but anyway...).

Many collectable games are also customizable games, in the sense that you can construct your own deck of cards, or army of miniatures, or whatever, before the game starts. I think this is a really cool concept. A game doesn't even really need to be collectable to be customizable. For example, "Blue Moon" is a game where you can make your own deck, but when you buy a booster (rather an expansion) you know exactly what you are going to get. I personally like this concept better than the randomness of collectable games, although collectable games are more interesting from a marketing point of view.

Now how do you port this idea to a multiplayer boardgame? An important problem that must be solved (as rkalajian pointed out) is: how do you keep players from mixing up their units (or cards, or whatever it is)? I'm sure other problems will pop up as well. For example, you need an actual game that is fun to play. After all, the collectable aspect of a game is more a marketing trick than a game mechanic!

I also wanted to point out that I think your spelling is really excellent. If every 13 year old could and would spell like that, the internet would be a much better place!

- René Wiersma

phpbbadmin
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Clarification

Joe_Huber wrote:
I've seen at least one game advertised as a collectable board game - I'm not sure if it's Duel of Ages, or if I thought Dual of Ages also might be one in addition to the other game.

In any event, it's been tried; not sure if it's been successful, though...

Duel of Ages is more of an expandable board game. I.E. if you buy the expansion, you get all the pieces... Dragonkid is that what you are referring to? Or are you referring to the idea you could buy boosters for a game and you might get X # of random game boards, x # of random game cards, X # of random miniatures, that sort of thing?

With Duel of Ages, there is no randomness with the pieces in the expansions.

I know one of the latest Stratego games that was recently put out had a 'collectable' aspect in that if you bought an expansion, you wouldn't really know which two armies you would be getting in the box. Now each Army was identical, so I don't know how well this plays in with your definition.

My thought is that it's a great idea, but ultimately you might fall into some of the same 'traps' that plagues Magic. By that I mean 'he who has the most money wins', 'Too much internet information', 'strange rules situations', etc etc.

There are games like
Dungeoneer that are ultimately card games but since you place some of the cards down to make the board, the line between card and board game is blurred.

My gut instinct is that your idea is not really new, and we've even discussed it in chats here before. Now if you were to make it highly marketable, that would actually be new, because no one has done it yet (to my limited knowledge).

At any rate, don't let naysayers discourage you. Work on your idea if you feel passionate about it! If nothing else if will catapult you into bigger and better ideas!

-Darke

GamesOnTheBrain
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New Game Category

A quick follow-up to my previous post:

I didn't mean to sound discouraging. I DO think it is a good idea. I just think it will be difficult to implement successfully.

By all means though, if you can come up with some solutions to the problems we've discussed, go for it!

jwarrend
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New Game Category

The best example I can think of of this idea is Formula De, for which you can buy 20+ different boards giving you many different race tracks that you can play the game on. A game for which changing the terrain is important could benefit a lot from this idea.

My impression in that the recent interest is more in *expandable* games than *collectible* games. There's a sense in which knowing what you're going to get when you buy an expansion is much more attractive for a lot of reasons.

My feeling is that the devil is going to be in the details on this one; whether this is a good idea or not will depend tremendously on the specific game you develop, and whether the game demands the collectibility element, or whether it feels like you're just forcing a novel concept onto a game that doesn't really require it. So, I think there's potential here, but it's all going to come down to the game itself; design a great game, and one that works much better when the game elements are collectible, and you'll have something!

Good luck,

Jeff

Anonymous
New Game Category

DragonKid wrote:
The pieces of the board would be able to connect together somehow and use the figures to play on the board you and your opponent create from the pieces you have from the boosters.

I think it's a great idea that hasn't really been done (that i'm aware of) exactly as you mention. Others have mentioned expandable games, but nothing where the players can really customize their playing set. The only games that immediately come to my mind are Zombies!!! and When Darkness Comes.

These (the latter mainly) are expandable with interchangeable tile pieces that may be used to create a custom and ever expanding scenario for players to play through. They talk up the expandable issue, but not really the customizable issue (though it is mentioned as a possibility for players wishing to come up with their own adventures).

I think you have a really good idea!

jwarrend wrote:
My feeling is that the devil is going to be in the details on this one; whether this is a good idea or not will depend tremendously on the specific game you develop, and whether the game demands the collectibility element, or whether it feels like you're just forcing a novel concept onto a game that doesn't really require it. So, I think there's potential here, but it's all going to come down to the game itself; design a great game, and one that works much better when the game elements are collectible, and you'll have something!

I think this is particularly apt. How many games have had a novel concept that has felt entirely tacked on to the detriment of the game? Proceed with caution and you may have a real winner!

FastLearner
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New Game Category

Great idea, DragonKid, good thinking!

I'm only aware of one product that fits that description, the above mentioned Vortex:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/2276

They actually marketed the game as a collectable board game, and the fact that the packs you purchased contained semi-random board pieces in varying rarities convinces me that it probably was. I don't think it ever really took off, though... it was being introduced in 2001 yet it was still struggling to get somewhere at the 2003 GAMA show I attended, and I never saw it in any stores.

-- Matthew

Zzzzz
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New Game Category

DragonKid,

Let me start of saying, I really like your idea.

After thinking about it for a little while, the only problem that I can see with it is actually implementing a game that can allow players to benefit from different game boards during play.

Think about the other collectable/customizable games and the reason people love them, rarity = advantage, custom decks = game variety, in theory of course.

Players love to take the game components and use them to their advantage. So goal for this idea to work, will be to figure out how a collectable game board can fit into game play, and give players advantage/variety?

Anything is possible and maybe a game like this will appear one day.

GamesOnTheBrain
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New Game Category

FastLearner wrote:
I don't think it [VORTEX] ever really took off, though... it was being introduced in 2001 yet it was still struggling to get somewhere at the 2003 GAMA show I attended, and I never saw it in any stores.

Yes, it is safe to say it did not catch on.

As a result the publisher, Fantasy Flight Games, recently released Maelstrom, a "fixed, stand-alone 2-4 player board game that contains every common and starter flat from the Vortex fantasy battle game."

"This is the game Vortex, packaged in a non-collectible format."

It's a shame, since the game itself is rated well and looks very interesting.

Anonymous
New Game Category

Take a look at Stratego Legends by Avalon Hill (Hasbro). It didn't do so well, that I know of, but it has a collectible element to it as well.

Anonymous
New Game Category

First off, I wish to thank everyone for posting.

I better get started...

rkalajian wrote:

The biggest problem to me is that player's pieces will get mixed up when creating the board and using figures. You'd have to find a way that players can mark their stuff so it doesn't get confused with another player's stuff.

I don't think it will really be the figures being mixed up as much as the board, sence most players will probably remember what figures they were playing with, but the boards could be a problem. May the boards could have a space on the back where you can wriite your name or initials.

zaiga wrote:

I also wanted to point out that I think your spelling is really excellent. If every 13 year old could and would spell like that, the internet would be a much better place!

Thanks. :-)

FastLearner wrote:

They actually marketed the game as a collectable board game, and the fact that the packs you purchased contained semi-random board pieces in varying rarities convinces me that it probably was. I don't think it ever really took off, though... it was being introduced in 2001 yet it was still struggling to get somewhere at the 2003 GAMA show I attended, and I never saw it in any stores.

Looking at the pictures on BGG, it is really nothing like I'm thinking of.

Alright, let me explain the actual collectable BOARD game aspect of it.

When you buy a booster, it would come with figures and board game pieces. The board pieces would come in different shapes and colors. For example, one piece may look like this:

OOOOO
OOOO
OOO
OO
O
and other:
OOOOO
OOO
OOOOO

The pieces would snap together somehow. The circles would be the same size as the figure bases. But most importantly, the circles would be colored.

These colors would represent different terrain. As Zzzzz said, Players like to take the game components and make them work to their advantage. But now, sence you are using two players' terrain to build a battle field, you must also use terrain to stop your opponents strategy.

Darkehorse wrote:

Or are you referring to the idea you could buy boosters for a game and you might get X # of random game boards, x # of random game cards, X # of random miniatures, that sort of thing?

That's what I'm referring to. Players would get a set amount of board pieces and miniatures, all randomized.

Thanks again, everybody.

rkalajian
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New Game Category

I really think you're on to something here, and look foward to seeing what you come up with.

Good luck!

Anonymous
New Game Category

DragonKid wrote:
I don't think it will really be the figures being mixed up as much as the board, sence most players will probably remember what figures they were playing with, but the boards could be a problem. May the boards could have a space on the back where you can wriite your name or initials.

One possibility is that each player lays their tiles completely separately from others, much the way that CCG's work. No players comingle their game components. It would be something you would have to work on, but it could eliminate the problem with mixed/lost components.

FastLearner
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Writing could reduce tradability, which is probably bad.

Perhaps players could just put markers on the board pieces that are theirs, like glass stones and the like.

-- Matthew

Anonymous
New Game Category

Well, the game I am creating right now that I am hoping to transfer to the collectable board game format is called Steel Suits, kind of based on BattleTech, is a game based in the future in war zones where armies use Steel Suits, 'Mech-type machines that weapons attached to them.

Well, this game is a miniature/card game, where players have a deck and have to recruit warriors from the deck, then use the corresponding miniatures to battle. (That's the simpliest form of the game...)

Well, sence four different of the same warrior could technicly be on the field at a time (well, really eight, but four on each side), the game comes with little things that you can put into little slits on the sides of the bases to show which card belongs to which warrior. This same type of thing could be used to show whose figures they are.

Anonymous
New Game Category

With all due respect, I don't want to see the idea of collectible board games take off. I purchased a copy of Maelstrom, and it looks great, but to me it's basically M: TG with thicker cards. You probably know people with boxes full of hundreds or thousands of Magic cards. I think people realized with Vortex how bulky and heavy such a collection would be and gave up on it. Now the game's no longer supported, it makes a great started set of cardboard hex tiles for prototyping. Buy a new set, then spraypaint the backs before you punch it with black chalkboard spray paint you can get at Home Depot, a couple coats, let it dry, then you've got 150 little reusable hex-shaped chalkboards for developing new game prototypes. The game itself may be great, but it lacks a feeling of finality or completeness due to the unfulfilled promise of an infinite future series of expansions.

An alternative phenomenon is that of the board game that comes out as a core set, then you get expansions. Munchkin, Talisman, etc. I like this better, because you don't HAVE to buy the expansions to have fun with the original, they just spice it up after you've played it a lot.

My main objection to collectible board games is that regardless how much fun they are, boardgames are a cheaper alternative to the collectible card craze. I personally like being able to know that I'm buying a closed system, with no further purchase required to have as much fun as I want to have with the original game. If it's a good game, and it's finished, it should be complete and satisfying with no further expansions or collectible goo-gaws. Not that I wouldn't buy an expansion; I'd just be happy knowing that I wouldn't have to try to build an extensive collection to master the game against opponents who might have different game materials than I do.

Collectible games lose their appeal when you're paying the bills, if you want to also have a family and a balanced life. Family Strategy Boardgames, by their very nature, should not be 'collectible' since the goal is to *save* money buy buying a complete, replayable entertainment package in a box, and save future entertainment money for other things like food, medicine, diapers, etc.

Like I said at the beginning, I'm not knocking you or your idea, I'm just protesting the trend toward collectible games and pay-by-month games. The original purpose of card and boardgames was to provide reusable fun that has unbelievable cost effectiveness over many years.

But keep on thinking creatively about things like this...there's plenty of room for innovation in the board game arena: I'm counting on it!

Anonymous
New Game Category

I don't really know many adults that play M:tG. I only see kids and teenagers playing. This game would probably appeal to the same type of crowd.

Both types of games, collectable and non-collectable, both have a big list of fans. Ethier way, it seems like the market is pretty big.

Plus, I'm only 13! Even if I finish then game and fix the idea to the exact detail, the chances of me getting it published are slim to none.

Anonymous
New Game Category

I like your idea for Steel Suits. Don't knock yourself...if you have a good enough game, sure you could get it published. Two things you need to always keep in mind though, whenever you're making a game, a novel, a poem, or a house, are A) your audience and B) your competition.

If you create a game that's similar to another popular game, you're not only competing with another product, you're competing for the emotions of the people who have already invested money in that product. The best type of game to compete against is one that is A) hugely popular and B) has little replay value. In other words, take a concept that has proven to work, but after people play it a few times they're ready for either something completely different, or something with similar gameplay but different or improved themes or situations.

Since there are already games with miniatures, and games with cards, you might consider designing a game system that uses miniatures and cards that are already produced. Since you're only 13 and can't yet enter into a legally binding contract without parental consent, you'd get more practice just collecting Mechwarrior figures and using them as prototype pieces, and then see how many different games you can create just using them.

There's a very common exercise in game design classes where you're given a very common game, like Monopoly or Clue, or even a set of playing cards, and asked to come up with a new game using the old board, and components. This kind of exercise will give you practice in seeing old games in new ways. One of the pitfalls if you're heavily inspired by another game is to create an almost identical game without realizing it. However, the act of designing is productive in itself. Just remember to take your design all the way:

If you forget the process, just look at the list of categories on the Forum index: 1. Design 2. Prototype Production 3. Playtesting

Once you come up with an idea, roughly sketch out your base game mechanics and rules, then as soon as possible come up with a rough working prototype, with the rules, pieces and board on poster paper, then get friends to playtest it. Not just play, but playtest: write notes and provide suggestions as you test the play of the game. This is where a lot of games that could have been great fail, they never got enough time in the playtest rooms. People buy em for the great parts, then pack em away or resell them when they realize the game is basically unfinished.

If you take the time to do that, and be prepared to playtest over and over, refining and simplifying everything, you'll have a playable game in a few months. It doesn't matter how old you are, the process is the same. Design, Prototype, Playtest...and if you do those enough, Publish!

By the way, if you ever get serious about publishing a game, you've got to network, and that means taking your finished prototype to game conventions and getting people to play it. Word gets around. If it grabs a publisher's interest, all the time playtesting was worth it.

Good Luck!

Anonymous
New Game Category

BookGnome wrote:

Since you're only 13 and can't yet enter into a legally binding contract without parental consent, you'd get more practice just collecting Mechwarrior figures and using them as prototype pieces, and then see how many different games you can create just using them.

Its funny you should say that. I already do collect MechWarrior :-)

I like to make my own original stuff, though. Even if I'm using pawns from Clue or Trouble or even Checker pieces, I like the cards to be pretty original. The MechWarrior stuff is a bit big, though. The 'Mechs in MechWarrior/BattleTech are supposedly between 20-100 tons large. The Steel Suits are supposed to be lighter, quicker fighting forces.

I don't really want this post to be about Steel Suits, but I just wanted to clear up a few things.

phpbbadmin
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Oh! Too Slow!

Upon researching another thread, I found out that Wizkids has beat you to the punch! Their game, Pirates of the Spanish Main has pretty much everything you suggested, except in a different theme. In each pack, you get a ship, some characters, some gold and an island piece to make up the map. Neat game. I normally hate anything collectible, but I'm going to check it out..

-Darke

TruMobius
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New Game Category

Heh, I just played my first game of Pirates of the Spanish Main saturday (Same Day I played tested Seafarers of Catan)

Yea its pretty close to what you are suggesting (Sans a Puzzle Board)
I think that the targeting and such could be better done but that comes with the territory with a Miniture game that doesn't involve Hexes, all in all its not a bad game. (This comming from a guy with some background in BattleTech the True 'Mech Game :) )

Back to Dragonkid's idea

Here are some ideas to get you off

-Your puzzle peice board should probably be divided in to hexes or squares
this gives you a wide range of possible shapes (good for collectability) and they are easy to peice together.

-To Keep peices from being messed up perhaps each player constructs half of the board. Board sizes could vary based on game point size, each space on a peice counts as a point. This gives rise to the idea of one of the goals of the game being to capture as much land as possible.

- It almost goes without saying that each tile should give advantages
in the Steel Suits idea perhapes your board is terrain types trees and mountians and such.....Certain terrain would favor certain weapons... you then would build a force of Steels that would best use your half of the board.

Its a nice idea a CBG and your Theme would do a good job in that "market" now you just got to do it.

sedjtroll
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I like TruMobius' idea of the pieces made up of hexes. They could vary in size to balance out certain things. Terrain is an obvious choice, and there could be special spaces which help out whoever's on them. A larger board segment (i.e. more hexes in it) might be sort of boring, while a smaller board might have one or more special spaces and some interesting terrain.

The goal of the game could be a number of things... like many games of this type there could be scenarios like Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, and King of the Hill. To encourage people to have to enter their opponent's board segments the goal of some scenaro might be to have 'control of' or a unit at each special space (of which each board would have 1 as a standard). Some special or rare boards might have more than 1 or maybe zero... then be better or worse in other ways.

So you buy a booster pack that comes with a couple board segments and a couple units and a couple cards, where the cards are either special use cards that affect game play or else identifier cards that go with the figure so you know it's stats and whatnot. The game would be played on a board made up of all the board segments that each player brings- where you build your army and have to have board segments that 'cost' a particular amount (probably a range). The balance would be that if you have 'expensive' (or really good) board segments then you have to play with more mediocre units (or simply fewer), and if you have powerful (or numerous) units you have to use cheap terrain.

Is this what you have in mind?

Anonymous
New Game Category

I think the closest thing there was to a collectable board game was Stratego legends http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/484 . You would buy the box game and then you could buy boosters of pieces to customize your army, totally random packaging as far as the boosters goes and a board game. There is also this game as well http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/3715 don’t know much about it but it’s close to the description

I just got two boosters of Pirates of the Spanish Maine and it is really close to a board game however I would still describe it as a miniatures game.

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